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NivagSwerdna View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by Vamino Vamino wrote:

 I was a little tired and ended up putting in ROM ko1 backwards which has damaged the rom, lesson learned not to tinker when tired lol.
It's a learning experience; I've done things I shouldn't have out of frustration... best take it slow.  Unfortunately some of these chips are almost unobtainium so best to not short, reverse too many things. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lurch666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 2:37pm
Wow I didn't know you could do that.
I heard of people using mame to check stuff but never delved into it.

Will have to now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vamino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by NivagSwerdna NivagSwerdna wrote:




I installed MAME, took the H14 ROM, turned all the least significant bits off and ran it (from command line 'mame64 kicker')
Look familiar? Smile You even get the flashing line on the head effect.  (Presumably due to a confusion over which colour is considered transparent).




Thats awesome mate!
I need to learn how to use mame to that kind of stuff.

To be honest yesterday I had a little tinker after work, I bent pins 11 on ROMS ko1 and ko2 so they weren't in the sockets and there were still lines through the graphics.

I was a little tired and ended up putting in ROM ko1 backwards which has damaged the rom, lesson learned not to tinker when tired lol.

Once I get the new ROMS I'll report back.

Really appreciate the time you guys have spent helping me.

Edited by Vamino - 15 Feb 2019 at 2:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NivagSwerdna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:58pm

I installed MAME, took the H14 ROM, turned all the least significant bits off and ran it (from command line 'mame64 kicker')
Look familiar? Smile You even get the flashing line on the head effect.  (Presumably due to a confusion over which colour is considered transparent).



Edited by NivagSwerdna - 15 Feb 2019 at 2:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vamino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 2:32pm
Thanks for the suggestions guys, it's really appreciated.


I've bought a used Wellon 290 burner for a reasonable price, some ROMS and sockets. Just waiting on them to arrive now!

I do have a few pcbs to check so will probably end up getting a scope if I can find one cheap enough.

So I'll check the roms, if the problem still persists then replace the 2 sockets and after that see if the concensus is to then try swapping the customs over from a known worker.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote John Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 2:13pm
I've knacked stuff shorting to ground or 5V. Use a 1k resistor on a bit of wire if that's the approach, but it's still risky as you can blow outputs on delicate stuff even with that. Best to hone-in on the problem before doing stuff like that. Schematics help lots - it's mostly variations on common themes.
If running your fingers along stuff makes things happen, that's sometimes an indicator of an issue. Just don't assume it's the pin you're actually touching (could be anything on that net).

I know it's not a cheap option, but I like a digital scope on stuff. You get used to what counts as a logic high (it's far below 5V!) and can see stuff that's dead or near-dead. Get an EPROM reader of course, too.
http://www.philwip.com -sibling 'fix-off' (I’m losing by miles).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NivagSwerdna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 2:03pm
... and another thing... Have you noticed how the main characters top line of his head flashes as he moves left and right... That's more an overlay, collision thing than a bitmap generation thing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lurch666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 1:29pm
I've crashed a few pcb shorting pins to ground but never damaged one.
BUT I tend to work on bootlegs (cheaper) and I tend to take a "anything is worth a try" approach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NivagSwerdna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 12:03pm
IMHO You should avoid shorting outputs. (... and inputs)

By the way... I can now see there is actually a distinction between tiles and sprites and your tiles appear good. I think that should be telling us something... I never really worked out how the 502 section works.. if someone can explain that would be appreciated.

Edited by NivagSwerdna - 14 Feb 2019 at 1:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lurch666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 11:32am
would connecting a wire to ground and then touching another data pin on the chip work as well.
Maybe ground an address pin as well.
If you can recreate the glitch on another part of the sprite that's a pointer to your problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NivagSwerdna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 9:45am
More pondering... I am a bit sceptical since if one bit of data was going missing from the ROM then I would expect more corruption but...
You could gently bend up that pin so it was disconnected and then see what happens... See if it stays low when not loaded by the 083 custom. From previous reverse engineering of 083s it seems that pin 4 is an input to a internal shift register, I would have expected all sorts of multiplexing hell to have broken out if that was the issue.

I have a cheapo TL866CS clone to read/write UVEEPROMs... I find it rather confusing but it mostly works.

If you want me to verify your ROMs, pm me and pop em in the post, although you probably have someone local. You could also construct a ROM reader very easily if you have a 5V arduino and a breadboard!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vamino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by Lurch666 Lurch666 wrote:

Originally posted by Vamino Vamino wrote:


Just checked, pin 11 on KO2 which the the 4th pin up on the LH side .
As per the pic on my 1st post, it's definetly stuck low and not pulsing mate.


That's puzzling.Since pin 11 on KO2 is only connected to pin 4 of H16 they should both be reading the same.
I agree with NivagSwerdna that it looks like an addressing problem but this could indicate a problem with the custom.

Remember I'm no expert.I fix boards by looking for what's wrong then trying to figure out which chip is responsible.
This means I usually change a lot of chips I don't need to as sometimes I chase the wrong thing.


It doesn't matter if you are an expert or not mate, you have helped me loads with trying to learn how to do this stuff. I came into this with no knowledge whatsoever, sometimes it feels like it's some sort of secret society fixing PCB's! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vamino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Lurch666 Lurch666 wrote:

Originally posted by Vamino Vamino wrote:


Just checked, pin 11 on KO2 which the the 4th pin up on the LH side .
As per the pic on my 1st post, it's definetly stuck low and not pulsing mate.


That's puzzling.Since pin 11 on KO2 is only connected to pin 4 of H16 they should both be reading the same.
I agree with NivagSwerdna that it looks like an addressing problem but this could indicate a problem with the custom.

Remember I'm no expert.I fix boards by looking for what's wrong then trying to figure out which chip is responsible.
This means I usually change a lot of chips I don't need to as sometimes I chase the wrong thing.


I had a brain fart mate, pin 11 on KO2 is connected to pin 6 on H16 and they are both doing the same thing, IE stuck low. Pin 11 on KO1 is connected to Pin 4 on H16 and they are both pulsing.

Sorry about the confusion! Embarrassed


Edited by Vamino - 12 Feb 2019 at 2:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lurch666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by Vamino Vamino wrote:


Just checked, pin 11 on KO2 which the the 4th pin up on the LH side .
As per the pic on my 1st post, it's definetly stuck low and not pulsing mate.


That's puzzling.Since pin 11 on KO2 is only connected to pin 4 of H16 they should both be reading the same.
I agree with NivagSwerdna that it looks like an addressing problem but this could indicate a problem with the custom.

Remember I'm no expert.I fix boards by looking for what's wrong then trying to figure out which chip is responsible.
This means I usually change a lot of chips I don't need to as sometimes I chase the wrong thing.


Edited by Lurch666 - 12 Feb 2019 at 2:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vamino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by NivagSwerdna NivagSwerdna wrote:

The fact that the colours for the majority of sprite pixels is correct suggests that this is an address side issue rather than a data side one. I would be interested to check continuity on the address side... Pin 8 on the ROMs to each other? And back to Pin 12 on the 503 custom?
Pins 3 through 10 on both ROMs should connect to each other at least.


I've just done a continuity test on pins 1 - 14 on ROM's KO1 and KO2, all have continuity except for pins 11 + 12 + 13.

Both KO1 and KO2 ROM's at pin 8 have continuity to pin 12 on the 503 custom.


Edited by Vamino - 12 Feb 2019 at 1:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vamino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Lurch666 Lurch666 wrote:

On the previous page where you showed the logic state of KO1 and KO2 pin 11 of KO2 was showing low and not pulsing.
You should not be getting pulsing at pin 4 of H16 since it's only connected to pin11 of KO2.
Can you verify the state of pin11 of KO2.


Just checked, pin 11 on KO2 which the the 4th pin up on the LH side .
As per the pic on my 1st post, it's definetly stuck low and not pulsing mate.


Edited by Vamino - 12 Feb 2019 at 1:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NivagSwerdna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 1:27pm
The fact that the colours for the majority of sprite pixels is correct suggests that this is an address side issue rather than a data side one. I would be interested to check continuity on the address side... Pin 8 on the ROMs to each other? And back to Pin 12 on the 503 custom?
Pins 3 through 10 on both ROMs should connect to each other at least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lurch666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 1:22pm
On the previous page where you showed the logic state of KO1 and KO2 pin 11 of KO2 was showing low and not pulsing.
You should not be getting pulsing at pin 4 of H16 since it's only connected to pin11 of KO2.
Can you verify the state of pin11 of KO2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vamino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 12:07pm
KO2 definitely terminates at Pin 4 on H16, I get continuity.
It's the 083 custom and it's pulsing away low.

Does that suggest a failed ROM to you mate?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lurch666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 11:27am
Looks like that missing signal goes to either pin 4 or pin 6 of H16-I can't tell which eprom is which on the schematic.
Can you see any markings on H16?

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