Sega Model 3 Dash Motor Details and FFB ‘Feel’

[chris2922]

Hey everyone. I was swapping between both sides of my twin driver yesterday and noticed the force feedback feels very different for the same game. All the other hardware and game settings (including ffb power) is the same, so the only difference I can see is the motor sitting behind the wheel. Model 3 (or type C) is not direct drive, it uses a belt. It isn’t the clutch design of earlier dashboards.

I just wondered if anyone has ever taken it off and inspected it? What spec motor is it and is a new replacement available? Perhaps a service / rewind would do it some good. At approx 20 years old maybe it’s a bit worn out.

I never took mine apart to that degree when I refurbished the dashboards because there was no need. But the force feedback really does feel different. Going over rumble strips on one side feels like being in a crash and on the other is barely noticeable. There is really no finesse to the feedback at all. Maybe ffb circa 1999 was just really crude, but I remember my Sidewinder ffb wheel on pc before that being excellent.

I guess my questions are:
Anyone taken one apart and know anything about the motor?
Anyone got any comments about the ‘feel’ of ffb on model 3? Does it feel like a bag of spanners?chris29222022-07-01 07:15:00

 

[Retroman839]

Lithium grease maintenance areas
Could need attention

Belt tensions
Motor power

 

[Vamino]

You will find that different Drive Boards (The one with the Led digits) will have different characteristics.

The game that amplifies this is Sega Rally 2. I went through 10 or so different ones to find the perfect one so it didn't feel as notchy.

I'm not sure what causes this phenomenon.

 

[Vamino]

Also if you haven't done so already, check the switchpacks on the Drive board. F355 has different switch settings for different strengths. Reducing the intensity of FFB can help sometimes.

 

[chris2922]

The dip switches are the same on both sides and match the manual. I suppose there are several things about the age and condition of the drive board that could change the feel of the ffb.

It surprises me that running along a bump strip feels like slamming over a few speed bumps though. I would have expected a vibration or little twitches to the wheel in quick succession. That could just be the way the game was programmed though.

I do wonder what a nice new F355 cab felt like. Can’t imagine much difference but I would like to try and see what feels different.

 

[Vamino]

When I restored my Sega Rally 2, I imported a NOS motor from America, it didn't make that much of a difference tbh. Coupled with finding the perfect drive board and NOS parts, only then I was very happy with the end result, it wasn't cheap though!

On my old initial D cab I had to threadlock a couple of small allen bolts on the wheel shaft as they would work themselves loose and cause vibrations similar to what you are experiencing.

With F355 I reduced the FFB effects slightly on my cab. I found a nice balance between switchpack settings and service menu settings, but as I mentioned the Drive board does play a role in how notchy the FFB is.

A full service is what I would do first, basically what Retroman suggests. Then I'd have a tinker with switchpack settings/service menu settings to try and find a nice balance. Maybe try swapping Drive boards around to see if they work better on a specific side. At nearly 25 years old after being hammered in Arcades, these mechanisms are not gonna be perfect now. Maybe resistance/interference in the wiring is a factor too? The rabbit hole could be pretty deep trying to find perfection!

Vamino2022-07-01 12:43:13

 

[Sbdesign]

Do you also find there is quite noticeable dead zone with no ffb when central?

Do you have the right EPROMs on the drive board.
Different per a game.

Perhaps someone changed the board from a sr2 etcSbdesign2022-07-01 12:40:47

 

[Fantazia2]

Have you tried swapping the drive boards between the two sides, could be old caps/components on the board degraded at different rates and might have been more similar feel when the cab first came out a couple of decades ago.

 

[Retroman839]

Voltage drop due to bad connectivity
On all power connections

Deoxit or a bit of wet & dry Retroman8392022-07-01 13:19:47

 

[steling1]

Have you tried swapping the drive boards between the two sides, could be old caps/components on the board degraded at different rates and might have been more similar feel when the cab first came out a couple of decades ago.

I second this, best thing about owning a twin is being able to swap parts across between them to test component behavior and fault hunt...I would start by swapping the servo motor drive board and try that and then swap the drive board with the LED numbers on it and see how that changes or not...

Ive got a Model 3 Daytona 2 twin, the FFB is super strong when you ramp it up but def doesnt have the more modern nuanced kind of FFB you get from gaming wheels, more of a constant feel of centering and the occasional bumping ffb...but thats also coupled with the occasional hardcore rip sawing when you hit something/go over grass etc at max strength....

 

[chris2922]

I didn’t know that the dip switches changed the force feedback power. I’ve seen that in the game settings though. Not knowing what any of the dips do I just made sure they were set as per the manual. Anyone got a dip switch setting table?

I know it’s the right EPROM for the game. The drive boards are so damn fragile and temperamental that I don’t touch them unless I need to.

I have three drive boards that work. 1 from the cab when I bought it from Ian and 2 from a parted out NASCAR. The NASCAR ones do seem to be more ‘lively’ than the older one. Other than age I can’t understand why they would be.

About the dead zone - yes there is definitely a few degrees in both directions before ffb kicks in. It’s only small though. Calibration in the software helped reduce that.

Swapping drive boards about does make a difference for sure. But none of them create a particularly good ffb experience. What I’d like to know is whether that’s just they way it is.

If Lix finally gets round to releasing his reproduction drive board it would be interesting to see how that behaves.

From your post about Daytona 2 John I think I have my answer. It’s no so much the board or the wiring or the motor, it’s just a rather crude implementation of force feedback. I’m fine with that though.

What would be really interesting is to hook up a PC to the dashboard and feed it some windows based FFB signals to see if the motor is capable of a more nuanced experience. That’s defiantly a project for me soon but I haven’t been able to start it yet.

I’ll be dropping a Chihiro and midi servo board in soon too, so will be interesting to see how the dash behaves with a different setup.

Still really wish I could nip back in time and play F355 twin so I could feel the FFB as it was new. I’ve messaged Gary because his is the mintiest F355 I know of. He might be able to set me straight.

 

[Vamino]

It's been a long while since I tinkered with F355 so I can't say how much of an impact the switch settings have, but these switch pack settings are from the Scud Race manual. You are gonna have to experiment yourself.

I'll have to fire up F355 just to confirm, but I've never encountered an issue with a large dead spot or really dire FFB. To be honest I go overboard replacing contacts and grounding things when I restore a cab that's a keeper. Only recently I discovered that grounding the game cage to the metalwork got rid of an annoying buzzing noise when capturing game footage with Scud Race, it's not so apparent when playing the game.

Like I said, it took me a long time to find drive boards which I was happy with. Some feel terrible in Sega Rally 2, others were so so. I only came across 1 which was perfect, so I swap that over whenever I play it.

Vamino2022-07-01 20:15:41

 

[chris2922]

I’ve had a play with the dip switches and they do exactly as that table suggests. I always wondered what they were for! So there’s a hardware strength setting and a software strength setting. Looks like that Scud manual says only to use the dips if the game doesn’t have a strength setting in test. F355 does so I’m leaving them at default and the game at 80%. Seems ok strength wise.

Next time you’re passing Ian come and have a go. It might feel spot on, I just have no reference point as it’s my first racing cab.

 

[Outrun2]

I've always found F355 to have the weakest FFB of all my Sega drivers. Weak as in not strong like it's ripping your arms off, but also as in a bit lacking in 'feel'. I think it's normal to expect great things of it because it's a simulator game and you only have in-car view so the expectancy is that it's very realistic. Maybe this was deliberate to move away from that amplified arcade game experience?

It's ok, but I agree it's nothing special and I do notice a slight dead zone in the centre - this is not just with FFB, but with the steering reaction itself. It's not the mechanical setup as the any sight movement of the wheel in the input test registers on the pot.

After you've been playing Daytona 2 and OutRun2 the F355 FFB just feels a bit underwhelming. Daytona 2 is rock hard even at the default 80% strength and you really feel like you're physically involved in the experience with strong progressive cornering feedback, slams into the side wall, forays off road and shunts with other cars all dealt with brilliantly; Daytona 2 is a thrash and smash game and you totally get that through the FFB.

OutRun2 is a more laid back driving experience, it's more about the flow of the drive than enjoying contact with other cars and objects on-screen and the FFB does feel more sophisticated to match this. Maybe it's because it's a more modern game and the software is better, or maybe the midi servo drive board allows for better feel? initialD also uses the same drive board and generally has good feel to match the more realistic game and extra degree turn wheel setup; I always see initialD as sitting somewhere between a pure arcade driving game and a simulator style driving game.

I enjoy all my games in different ways and the FFB is a major part of the enjoyment, if it's not there you might as well be playing a console game with a gaming pad! Friends who play on my cabs who are not arcade geeks are always really surprised by the FFB - they just don't expect it to be so 'real' in their words.

I wouldn't bother fiddling with the motors, I've had loads of Model 3 style dashes in all kinds of states and never had a motor fail - they seem bulletproof! Ian is right that you can get a sloppy feel in the wheel if the mechanicals aren't tight enough - threadlocking the grub screws on the pinion gear and getting the tension through the belt right are important.

One of the wheels on my Daytona 2 has recently started squeaking so there's a job for me to look into at some stage!

 

[Sbdesign]

I agree the FFB is not only weak but just really poor.
But don't think it is do do with amplified arcade vs realistic. Or at least shouldn't be.

A real F355 car pulls much more force on the wheel than any of these arcades can handle by 10+ fold.

To me the ffb is just badly done on this game, which is surprising considering how and why the game came about.

 

[Anonymouse]

I have 2 F355 machines and can tell you that they are very weak. I tried changing over everything from a sega rally 2 machine and it was still weak. It must be designed like this. I havent tried using SR2 EEPROM with the SR2 dip settings though?? <--- maybe someone could try this?

I love the tough feel of SR2 and would really like it on my F355 machines. I think its all down to the EPROM settings. Would be ace if someone could reverse engineer the F355 EPROM and burn new ones with tougher feel. I played around with the dip switches and only ever got errors.