Outrun deluxe: Help requested with motion & movement

[LoneWolf24]

Can someone with an Outrun deluxe please help me with reviewing this video and provide some suggestions? I'd appreciate it.
I've seen a few nice restorations here and I'm currently reconditioning one. It's come a long way, the game was non-functional, was missing it's motor board, it was missing it's 2nd bridge rectifier, it was also wired incorrectly from the 2nd bridge rectifier to the 2nd cap on the power board so it wouldn't move at all.
This has since been resolved for the most part as it's not blowing any fuses any longer! I've got it to the point now where it will warm up and finally spin the motor but it's still giving me the engine trouble/limit switch error. The motor spins clockwise moving the car to the right, hits the limit switch, stops where it seems like it's supposed to? but then dies there, it doesn't move counter-clockwise to the left.
If I reposition to the middle, go into the motor settings and test it there, it does the same thing as it moves to the right but not to the left.
Please also let me know if you need me to check anything & please check the wiring on the limit switches, motor and let me know if all seems OK. This was all not connected originally.
Thanks

 

[John Bennett]

I wish I knew the logic behind the self-test, but I've never actually laid hand on a real Outrun, or studied MAME in detail.

There's a potentiometer to let the game PCB know the position - is that reading correctly?

The limit switches are almost dual-purpose - the drive PCB will stop motion if you hit them - it's built into the PAL logic to self-protect like that.
It also isolates, amplifies and transmits the limit switches back to the game PCB via the ribbon cable. I don't know if the game board looks for this signal during the self-test or not. That bit should work as you have a top-quality UKVAC motor drive PCB and was tested , but it could be an iffy ribbon cable connection.

I should look at all of this in more detail really - maybe a proper owner can confirm the sequence.

The drive board just has one triac for all of this and it's functioning (and syncronising to the mains), otherwise it wouldn't move at all.

 

[LoneWolf24]

Thanks to you John, we certainly have a solid board to start with. As a matter of fact, I sourced an original, put that it in during this process and it's giving me the same result, so it's even duplicating the error
OK, good suggestions. I checked the potentiometer in the move drive test, when centered it's about 81H, it stops to the right at limit C6H, motor position C7H.
Then at the bottom it displays Left limit sw or motor trouble / Center sw or motor trouble. I didn't change that POT as it seems to be working correctly but I supposed I could swap it out as I have a spare.
Good point about the triac and that it wouldn't be moving at all. Just to note, I did have the motor refurbished, heated & with new bearings and all. The person who worked on it said it should work perfectly in both directions and based on his standard electric motor knowledge he only said that something is not triggering it to reverse it's polarity to go the other way, he said that meaning it's not the motor.
Interesting about the ribbon cable, it is quite old, I did unplug and plug it back in several times, I'll try Deox'ing it as well. I should acquire a new one & rule that out. Are they readily available?
So close! yet so far. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[LoneWolf24]

It seems because new to posting here (not at all new to the hobby) that my messages are being moderated until I post more. That last message was over 5 hrs ago, will need to build up some credit here first. Thanks

 

[Mykill2.0]

Mine dose the same ,main pcb I think as I've tested everything but that ,if you start a game and roll the gear next to the motor and you may get movement

 

[Mykill2.0]

Could u take a video of the motor test screen that shows the movement

 

[John Bennett]

This is the circuit at the game PCB end:


You should have a very low resistance between IC118 and the pins of the 26-way header as 'FLT' is just a filter with a low resistance.
They should all measure the same anyway, all 6 limit switches.
If that' ok, IC118 is next - easy enough to replace. Put a multimeter on the diode setting, put the + lead on ground and compare readings for pins for the input sides and the output sides of all 6 gates. All inputs should read similar and all outputs should read similar.
Then it's a knacked cutom, which would be most unlucky.

 

[LoneWolf24]

Could u take a video of the motor test screen that shows the movement

I only get the same movement to the right if I center back the seat manually by rotating the gear/belt by hand and running the motor test. If I run the test again when the car is all the way to the right it doesn't do anything.

 

[LoneWolf24]

This is the circuit at the game PCB end:
View attachment 24654

You should have a very low resistance between IC118 and the pins of the 26-way header as 'FLT' is just a filter with a low resistance.
They should all measure the same anyway, all 6 limit switches.
If that' ok, IC118 is next - easy enough to replace. Put a multimeter on the diode setting, put the + lead on ground and compare readings for pins for the input sides and the output sides of all 6 gates. All inputs should read similar and all outputs should read similar.
Then it's a knacked cutom, which would be most unlucky.

Ok, i believe this all checked out from what I can tell here, thanks. I also have a spare known working pcb, tried that & same result so I don’t believe in this case it’s the main pcb. I also tried 2 different (new) standard 26 pin ribbon cables, same result. Darn, was hoping it was that!
One big clue I noticed from another video I saw saw showing the startup is that it looks like when the game is powered on, it moves first to the left, then to the right, then back to center. When I boot my game, it skips the left side run completely, goes to the right, hits the limit switch and then fails there.
I also noticed that my motorbrake (caliper) is ‘not’ opening up, yet I hear the click I believe that’s signaling it to try to. I tested voltage, I’m getting about 55v AC off the main red/black coming from the transformer (that’s coming from 80v AC (tested) there, the line that originates from the transformer, splits the red wire to the motor and black back to the the motor board. I’m getting about 24v DC from the rectifier into the thin blue wires to the motor caliper. I know the motor is rated 80v DC but I believe that’s just rated voltage correct? Does this sound about right? I’m wondering if I’m getting enough voltage to engage the brake/caliper and not sure but think if it can be engaged that it should open and then reverse the other way to the left?
There used to be video here showing proper functioning of the motor caliper when running the test but it looks like it’s since been deleted?
Hoping someone can post that and offer some suggestions?
I also tested the varistor next to the motor with a multimeter and a capacitance meter and it seems to check out OK. I don’t think this should affect the signals going to the motor if bad? But I haven’t ruled it out yet as I bought the closest spec varistor I could find coming in sometime this week just to check it but have no reason to believe from my testing that the existing one isn’t good. Thanks

 

[John Bennett]

I did some MAME hacking so I could understand what it does better.
It does appear to move to the left, until it hits a limit switch, then it moves all the way over to the right, then back to the centre.
It does the same when you go into test mode.

Is there a chance the motor has somehow been wired backwards?

Would you be able to video the entire Service Mode test sequence? I doubt it can skip anything, so I'm wondering what's happening while it's waiting for the motor to move left? (and also what it displays on the screen for the hex position values). If it starts by moving right, that means the motor's backwards. I can simulate stuff here, but it would be good to see what the game board reports during testmode.
Could you also centre the seat before starting the test mode?

For the brake, it's just 24V to release it. You could probably even disconnect it and the game would run - it's got no knowledge of the brake, it's a protection mechanism handled by the drive PCB (which looks at limit switches). The voltages sound about right for the motor. I think if you were driving into the brake, it would probably trip the circuit breaker, as otherwise it would risk damaging the triac on the motor drive board as you'd get enormous stall currents into the motor.

 

[Bods]

Even with owning one I haven't had any experience with fixing issues as I've never had a problem with it, though I haven't switched it on for a long time, mainly due to space issues

Faulty game board can cause it as my Space Harrier did the same thing when switched on, think it went right/forward but the mainboard wasn't booting

What about the home centre switch? is that working okay, assume reed type from manual and has gap setting.

 

[John Bennett]

It's a bit rubbish that the 3 switches go all the way to the main PCB, but you can't read their status in the service menu. Or I don't think you can.

If a limit switch is faulty*, it can stop the motor drive PCB from moving in a particular direction. It shouldn't send it right instead of left at bootup though.

With a multimeter you should be able to trace pressing a switch all the way to the outputs IC118 on the game PCB.

*the 2 end switches make the drive PCB auto-stop the motor, the middle it doesn't care about, just transmits it to the game PCB.

 

[smarty]

From memory the limit switches are all NC and got to NO when activated. Check the outer ones have not been wired onto the NO contact (if they have one) as this would be activating as soon as test mode starts and causing problems.

 

[LoneWolf24]

Even with owning one I haven't had any experience with fixing issues as I've never had a problem with it, though I haven't switched it on for a long time, mainly due to space issues

Faulty game board can cause it as my Space Harrier did the same thing when switched on, think it went right/forward but the mainboard wasn't booting

What about the home centre switch? is that working okay, assume reed type from manual and has gap setting.

Thanks, this looks to be OK from what I can tell. It's set at the 3mm +/-0.5 it recommends in the manual, not sure best way to test this type of switch? But set on Ohms, I'm getting a differential in the reading when I pass the magnet by it so assuming it's good.
I'm not sure what the part # is or what a suitable replacement would be for it, but a posted link would be great if anyone has a recommendation for one and I can swap a new one in just to rule it out.

 

[LoneWolf24]

From memory the limit switches are all NC and got to NO when activated. Check the outer ones have not been wired onto the NO contact (if they have one) as this would be activating as soon as test mode starts and causing problems.

Ok thanks, I tried this but do believe it's NO and NC when activated, I tried switching it to normally closed and normally open but when I did that the motor did nothing, skips the test quickly stating the same type of motor trouble error and starts the game up right away.

 

[LoneWolf24]

I did some MAME hacking so I could understand what it does better.
It does appear to move to the left, until it hits a limit switch, then it moves all the way over to the right, then back to the centre.
It does the same when you go into test mode.

Is there a chance the motor has somehow been wired backwards?

Would you be able to video the entire Service Mode test sequence? I doubt it can skip anything, so I'm wondering what's happening while it's waiting for the motor to move left? (and also what it displays on the screen for the hex position values). If it starts by moving right, that means the motor's backwards. I can simulate stuff here, but it would be good to see what the game board reports during testmode.
Could you also centre the seat before starting the test mode?

For the brake, it's just 24V to release it. You could probably even disconnect it and the game would run - it's got no knowledge of the brake, it's a protection mechanism handled by the drive PCB (which looks at limit switches). The voltages sound about right for the motor. I think if you were driving into the brake, it would probably trip the circuit breaker, as otherwise it would risk damaging the triac on the motor drive board as you'd get enormous stall currents into the motor.

Alright, thanks for checking that.

Maybe onto something here? I took a video of the testing process (2 of them), one of the motor behavior & one showing the screen the whole time.
Take a look please but it doesn't appear to me that the motor is doing anything but warming up before it decides to move to the right. I've been listening closely for anything but can't tell.

Does it seem like it starts immediately to the right without attempting the left at all? Notice how the motor runs to the right at about the same time it displays the left limit error message.

Could the motor somehow be wired backwards? I'm not able to rule that out yet as I've never seen it run the other direction.

 

[LoneWolf24]

Update:

Well.. something certainly interesting. I cut and stripped the 2 wires from the sensor, tested them with my meter in continuity mode and according to this method below I’m getting a beep, no reading at all. I did the additional method too and the difference with ‘AC’ as listed instead of Ohms as I was trying before, I get hardly no bump at all if anything as the magnet is passing the sensor. I believe by this test it’s conclusive enough to say the switch is BAD. I’m actually happy about this but staying reserved. It is the first time I’ve found something for sure that’s not working properly since the beginning with the rectifier and cap that’s brought it to this point.

Does this mean the motor will work when I put a new sensor in? Maybe but maybe not. I have a new sensor on order. This one, it was closest I could find to the size. I have no specs from the manual, but hope it’s correct since it’s just 2 a 2-wire proximity switch as a sensor and this was the most popular one purchased that’s about the right size with the wires coming out of the left the same.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/pic-gmbh/MS-324-3-1-0500/9687442

Test method:
To test a magnetic pickup sensor, you can follow a systematic approach to ensure its functionality. First, visually inspect the sensor for any signs of damage, such as cracks or corrosion, which could affect its performance. Next, use a multimeter set to the resistance or continuity mode to check the sensor's coil. Place the multimeter probes on the sensor's terminals; a typical reading should be within the sensor's specified resistance range. A reading of zero or infinity suggests a faulty sensor.

Additionally, you can perform a dynamic test by connecting the sensor to its circuit and rotating the engine or the component it monitors. As the target passes the sensor, observe the output voltage with an oscilloscope or multimeter set to AC voltage. The sensor should generate a voltage signal corresponding to the passing target. If the signal is weak or non-existent, the sensor may need to be replaced.

 

[Bods]

without looking at mine I assume it's just Magnetic operated reed switch, have them on machines I work with. so magnet just pulls it over to operate switch, so should be normally open circuit, when magnet in range to operate it should be short circuit 0 ohms when Outrun in middle home position

If I had space to get to mine I would of been happy to move the switch and see what it does when testing when it doesn't know it's home position and see if it would recreate the same fault

You would think the Sega service manuals would give a fault process flow chart so if would say if it goes to the right check centre switch is operating and adjusted correctly, on the Video it shows Left Limit Switch or motor trouble which I guess will come up because it hasn't triggered the left switch, It knows the Right one is okay because it's triggered that one and shows it, but showing the Center switch error also you would assume it doesn't know it's position to start with but who knows unless having some experience with this before, it's a bit 50/50 unless you test switch and know it's 100% not working

Worst is having to wait for parts to arrive, I need to repair leaking fuel line on car, now waiting for brake pipe cutter to sort it as can't get in with any pipe cutters, sometime I wish I'd think ahead and could of had it already lol

 

[LoneWolf24]

without looking at mine I assume it's just Magnetic operated reed switch, have them on machines I work with. so magnet just pulls it over to operate switch, so should be normally open circuit, when magnet in range to operate it should be short circuit 0 ohms when Outrun in middle home position

If I had space to get to mine I would of been happy to move the switch and see what it does when testing when it doesn't know it's home position and see if it would recreate the same fault

You would think the Sega service manuals would give a fault process flow chart so if would say if it goes to the right check centre switch is operating and adjusted correctly, on the Video it shows Left Limit Switch or motor trouble which I guess will come up because it hasn't triggered the left switch, It knows the Right one is okay because it's triggered that one and shows it, but showing the Center switch error also you would assume it doesn't know it's position to start with but who knows unless having some experience with this before, it's a bit 50/50 unless you test switch and know it's 100% not working

Worst is having to wait for parts to arrive, I need to repair leaking fuel line on car, now waiting for brake pipe cutter to sort it as can't get in with any pipe cutters, sometime I wish I'd think ahead and could of had it already lol

100% correct & thanks for the thoughts, all the best with your car repair too. Yes, a flow chart would be wonderful if it existed. It feels like this process is kind of creating one I suppose, maybe if can get it working it will be helpful to someone else someday as well.

Just to note that I did replace the centering pot too. It seemed that it didn't matter the potentiometer position while I was changing it out. Maybe it doesn't matter yet because the center switch is the one that cares about the pot being at 80H? Not sure but maybe something in that area to check on the schematic?

Also, another question, say the game ends (player runs out of time) and the car is all the way over to one side, does it end with the car on the side and you get out there or does it move to center before you come to the end screen or enter initials? This may give a clue?

It's understood that if the games goes left at startup no matter what position the game is in relation to the home switch then it's probably not it, however, I did another test before I looked more closely at the center switch, this time I moved the game manually all the way over to the left with the switch engaged 'before' running the motor test. It did register the left switch, and it still moved all the way over to the right but there was no center switch reading as the car moved passed the center switch which had me thinking how it could run passed it and not register it? (now I know it's bad). It did register the right switch too at the end so the only error doing it this way is the center switch (see pic below) but it still didn't return to center.

Does this rule out the game pcb not being able to pick up the left & right switch?

Just to note, the game has never moved left yet so maybe with that demonstration the motor test is smarter than it looks? lol. Maybe it's now down to either the center switch or motor trouble.

The only schematic I can find online is very blurry as I don't have the original manual but if someone has a clearer scan of the deluxe model schematic and can post it or share a link to it that would be helpful. The standard sitdown version of the manual online looks more clear but it's just 1 page and seems to be a tad different in some areas as well.

Anyways, just waiting now. I did pay the extra few dollars for Priority mail. If anyone has anything else to share, please post. Thanks

 

[Bods]

The car always returns to Centre where ever game ends Maybe it's just default on it to go right if home position is unknown