Outrun deluxe: Help requested with motion & movement

[John Bennett]

I just got MAME to simulate a non-responsive centre switch and on self-test, it'll still move the seat:
Left (to hit left limit switch)
Right (to hit right limit switch)
Slightly left of centre
Right (to hit limit switch).
Centre limit switch error.

Basically it'll hunt for where the centre swtich should be using the pot, and if it doesn't see it within around 10% of where it's expected, it heads right to find it.

Very strange. The motor drive is definitely syncing with the mains, as otherwise it wouldn't move at all. It uses the 18V AC transformer output to 'see' the mains and lock-on..
But the motor is powered off the high voltage 80V AC output (which should be in-phase with the 18V AC as it's off the same transformer). If you wired the 80V backwards, it'd go the wrong way, but I don't know what'd stop left working completely, unless you put a rectifier diode in the line of the 80V 🤪.
Could you measure the 80V out the transformer with a multimeter?

 

[LoneWolf24]

I just got MAME to simulate a non-responsive centre switch and on self-test, it'll still move the seat:
Left (to hit left limit switch)
Right (to hit right limit switch)
Slightly left of centre
Right (to hit limit switch).
Centre limit switch error.

Basically it'll hunt for where the centre swtich should be using the pot, and if it doesn't see it within around 10% of where it's expected, it heads right to find it.

Very strange. The motor drive is definitely syncing with the mains, as otherwise it wouldn't move at all. It uses the 18V AC transformer output to 'see' the mains and lock-on..
But the motor is powered off the high voltage 80V AC output (which should be in-phase with the 18V AC as it's off the same transformer). If you wired the 80V backwards, it'd go the wrong way, but I don't know what'd stop left working completely, unless you put a rectifier diode in the line of the 80V 🤪.
Could you measure the 80V out the transformer with a multimeter?

That's interesting John, thanks for doing the test. It seems by this test then that the game may still go left first even without the centre switch connected? Yet, it appears the logic will still hunt for where the centre switch is using the pot and go right to try & find it? Oh boy

Could it be that it may check first or assume that if the game is slightly centered to right of the centre switch at around 80h with the POT (because when the game ends it always returns to there) but there's no magnetic connection because of no switch or switch is bad, that it heads right and never looks back? and even if it hits the right switch stays right because there's no centre? -or- do you think it doesn't care about the centre switch at all when the game starts and it should still move left regardless?

OK, with the transformer testing (I just sent a note to MyKill) to see if he can test and possible gets the same result as I do? I'm basically getting 80v AC across the 2 top wires (Red & Blue) of the transformer. The Red wire on 80v and the Blue wire on 0v. (The only two wires across on top) When I measure Red wire to ground of the transformer I get about 50v and if I measure that Blue wire to ground I get about 30v so I'm thinking that's how it gets to 80v AC?

The 2 AC wires that go to from the transformer to the motor, one is a Black wire that goes straight to the motor drive board and 1 is that Red wire off the transformer that's reading about 50v AC.
I'm also trying to verify my bridge rectifier connection which appears to be correct but just to be sure and will let you know.

The centre switch is arriving Friday and I should have it by Saturday and I'll be able to try it then!

 

[Mykill2.0]

 

[Mykill2.0]

 

[Mykill2.0]

I just got MAME to simulate a non-responsive centre switch and on self-test, it'll still move the seat:
Left (to hit left limit switch)
Right (to hit right limit switch)
Slightly left of centre
Right (to hit limit switch).
Centre limit switch error.

Basically it'll hunt for where the centre swtich should be using the pot, and if it doesn't see it within around 10% of where it's expected, it heads right to find it.

Very strange. The motor drive is definitely syncing with the mains, as otherwise it wouldn't move at all. It uses the 18V AC transformer output to 'see' the mains and lock-on..
But the motor is powered off the high voltage 80V AC output (which should be in-phase with the 18V AC as it's off the same transformer). If you wired the 80V backwards, it'd go the wrong way, but I don't know what'd stop left working completely, unless you put a rectifier diode in the line of the 80V 🤪.
Could you measure the 80V out the transformer with a multimeter?

Mine is moving at two speeds ,slow left fast right slow to center misses center on the return then goes full right also wanna point out the car shakes when you crash as it should ...sometimes

 

[John Bennett]

So @Mykill2.0 - in the last video are you messing with the pot to make the seat move? It looks full speed in that video to my untrained eyes.

Where it's not moving in test mode, there's a loud hum. It's not powering into the brake it is?

The 2 things I still need to simulate are:
what does it do if the position feedback pot doesn't change, as expected? (or randomly changes)
what are the states of the brake during the test modes?

 

[LoneWolf24]

Thanks for posting the vid's @Mykill2.0 .
A little bit different issue than here but just as challenging it seems nonetheless.
What type of monitor is in it? It seems like it's trying to degauss, maybe some sort of interference from something else. Is the degaussing coil present? Does it have a good connection? Are the Earth grounds solid everywhere?
With the pot, did you have to loosen the pot to do that test or is it loose like that with it tightened up? Maybe it's getting some power just not enough so you're able to turn it a little bit with your hand because it's so easy to move? A little bit hard to tell from here.
Seems like it's very close. Let's continue to troubleshoot & get these working 100%!

 

[John Bennett]

I wouldn't be surprised if the degauss noise is the transfomer - that's why I wondered if the brake was playing up - loads of current would be going into the motor if it was stuck by the brake, which could make the transformer hum (although that's what the circuit breaker by the mains plug is there for, if it still works).

@LoneWolf24 - can you tell when your brake is releasing? It must be for it to be able to move right. I guess if you can push the seat around, then it's definitely not the brake jamming on.

 

[LoneWolf24]

@LoneWolf24 - can you tell when your brake is releasing? It must be for it to be able to move right. I guess if you can push the seat around, then it's definitely not the brake jamming on.

My brake is not releasing. I took it off, cleaned it up, lubricated it but nothing. I'm hearing a little bit varying opinions on whether it opens or not and wish I could see a video from the motor perspective on a working machine? While the game moves left to right. I thought I saw one posted here at one time but it must have been removed, maybe someone with working movement can chime in?
I've heard it only opens if tested at very high speeds or as a protective measure but I wonder if it slightly opens to release and move left?

 

[John Bennett]

Would you dare run it without the brake attached? The motor drive should still stop on the limit switches and there's still a circuit breaker present.

I'm a bit skeptical it is that though - you'd at least see it struggling against it, whereas yours sits dead still. Plus I doubt it releases and reapplies the brake multiple times during the self-test.

 

[LoneWolf24]

Acutally, I may have tried that already because forgot to plug the clutch wires in one time. I heard the motor just hum and it didn't move at all. I didn't want to leave it on in case of burning out anything so I immediately flipped it off. I didn't want to harm said nice motor drive board
I'm thinking that maybe the motor needs the signals from the clutch first? Or maybe it did that because no centre switch still?

 

[John Bennett]

I'm afraid it's got no knowledge of the clutch/brake.
The motor drive just applies 24V to it when it gets a valid speed code from the main PCB.

The speed codes are pretty simple - I test boards using a binary potentiometer.
0 (0000)(all off, put on the brake)
1 (0001) full speed right
2 (0010)
3 (0011)
4 (0100)
5 (0101)
6 (0110) slowest speed right
7 (0111)stop
8 (1000) slowest speed left
9 (1001)
10 (1010)
11 (1011)
12 (1100)
13 (1101)
14 (1110)
15 (1111) fastest speed left

The 4-bits of that are the wires on the ribbon cable:


SPDIN4-7 are just used on space harrier.

I can't see that being a problem on yours though @LoneWolf24, as you've changed out everything. It would go the wrong way or wrong speed if the odd pin was bad, it woudn't just sit there and never go left)

 

[LoneWolf24]

OK, I'll be diving into it quite a bit this weekend, will post here as I have more results. Thanks

 

[Mykill2.0]

So @Mykill2.0 - in the last video are you messing with the pot to make the seat move? It looks full speed in that video to my untrained eyes.

Where it's not moving in test mode, there's a loud hum. It's not powering into the brake it is?

The 2 things I still need to simulate are:
what does it do if the position feedback pot doesn't change, as expected? (or randomly changes)
what are the states of the brake during the test modes?

The loud hum is it moving slow

Would you dare run it without the brake attached? The motor drive should still stop on the limit switches and there's still a circuit breaker present.

I'm a bit skeptical it is that though - you'd at least see it struggling against it, whereas yours sits dead still. Plus I doubt it releases and reapplies the brake multiple times during the self-test.

Would you dare run it without the brake attached? The motor drive should still stop on the limit switches and there's still a circuit breaker present.

I'm a bit skeptical it is that though - you'd at least see it struggling against it, whereas yours sits dead still. Plus I doubt it releases and reapplies the brake multiple times during the self-test.

I did this ,dont do this .Goes full speed of the motor into the limit switch lol

 

[Mykill2.0]

I'm afraid it's got no knowledge of the clutch/brake.
The motor drive just applies 24V to it when it gets a valid speed code from the main PCB.

The speed codes are pretty simple - I test boards using a binary potentiometer.
0 (0000)(all off, put on the brake)
1 (0001) full speed right
2 (0010)
3 (0011)
4 (0100)
5 (0101)
6 (0110) slowest speed right
7 (0111)stop
8 (1000) slowest speed left
9 (1001)
10 (1010)
11 (1011)
12 (1100)
13 (1101)
14 (1110)
15 (1111) fastest speed left

The 4-bits of that are the wires on the ribbon cable:
View attachment 24884

SPDIN4-7 are just used on space harrier.

I can't see that being a problem on yours though @LoneWolf24, as you've changed out everything. It would go the wrong way or wrong speed if the odd pin was bad, it woudn't just sit there and never go left)

What ic is this

 

[John Bennett]

IC122, by the looks of it. Transistor buffer.
With the board off, put a multimeter on the diode setting, stick the red probe on ground and put the black on each of those output lines from the IC (pins 10 onwards). They should all give very similar readings.
The filters between that and the ribbon cable should all read very low resistance, but I doubt they're popped.

 

[LoneWolf24]

I tried the replacement switch, sorry to report it's exactly the same. It seems the test method wasn't accurate as the new switch tested the same as the old.
I’m now checking continuity to and from the boards with just about everything to see if something is not making connection somewhere.
On a side note, reversed the leads on the A/C lines going to the motor and it did move left, it’s basically the same issue but in reverse but at least that rules out the motor not physically being able to power left.

 

[John Bennett]

Hmm. It's hard to think what else it could be.

Is the lamp board working ok?
There's an 18V rail that goes to both the motor drive and the lamp board in the schematics. There's also a rectifier hanging off it. You could maybe remove the lamp board plug and double check the 18V rectifier wiring.
Also check it's actually 18V.
This is the signal the drive PCB uses to sync to the mains. If it's being corrupted somehow, it could mess up the motion a bit, although it's a very long shot as you'd expect it to either sit there shaking, rather than be perfect going right and nothing going left.

 

[LoneWolf24]

Hmmm.. lamp board and rear tail lights work great but looking at the schematic.. Could it matter the A/C connection on the bridge rectifier? In order of side? Common thought is AC the same both ways but it looks like different voltage to different side of the AC on the rectifier.
Ok, I’m going to check the 18v, also reverse the a/c on the bridge and try it, report back Thanks

 

[John Bennett]

Yeah, you can't get the AC wrong on the bridge rectifier. It wouldn't be happy if you'd put ac onto one of the outputs though.