MTC9000 help

RGP

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Ordyne said:
You could try powering up again with the scan coil connector unplugged, if it still blows the fuse check the large transistor on the side of the chassis heat sink (Tr20) for a short, if that's ok test the 4 diodes that make up the bridge rectifier (d19,20,21,22)

This is probably where i'd look at first for something blowing F1 constantly - at least one of those diodes would be a likely suspect and TR20 would also cause that kind of thing going short.

It is also very possible (and easily done) with the cramped design on the 9000's to accidentally twist legs together or touch two components together (resistor and transistor for example) that weren't supposed to be directly connected - do a thorough visual inspection in that area using the schematic as your guide.

Ordyne said:
Btw, I wasn't having a pop regarding the flow chart, the problem with them is A) they are now bloody old and were made when half of the faults you see now never happened. B) they miss so much potential stuff out they can lead you into looking in the wrong direction.

Maybe it's time for some upto date ones!

Craig, we sincerely appreciate the vast wealth of knowledge members like yourself and Grant have accumulated over the years - without one of you on speed dial we have only the internet or experience to turn to and as a like-minded community we try to help each other. I don't think your intention was anything other than supportive either, flat text on a screen is easy to misinterpret but consideration at the input stage is well appreciated.

There are many of us who have gotten into these kind of repairs later in life and want to soak up the knowledge that is out there and want to learn. If you and/or Grant decided to run a weekend monitor repair bootcamp believe me, i'd be there for one.

We all appreciate that there are seriously lethal voltages just waiting to get you and most of us take the appropriate - or probably more precautions than necessary (levitating while one arm has been gaffer taped behind you etc).

If it was within your power to do a more comprehensive flow-chart than the nearly 30 year old ones that are being used we'd welcome it.

It would be really nice to see these all in fix-logs as there's always a number of problems with a blank screen on these hantarex chassis - is it the B+, is it TH1 or TH2 (the mini transformer before the HOT), is the HOT, is it the LOPT.

I love reading a good fix log "Monitor was dead, on investigation, B+ was 186 even with a load applied, checked all PSU section, all seemed good at first but finally the problem was traced down to R99 being way out of spec - replaced R99 and now have 130v but screen still won't start, HOT ok, no shorted windings on flyback. Lifted one leg of D10 - still nothing. Visual inspection underneath reveals a cracked trace leading to pin 3 on the scan coil connector - patched the trace and the screen came up, a few minor adjustment faults and a missing red colour which was a bad neck card transistor - replaced all 3 for insurance and did a recap after finding a number of quite bulged electrolytics. Ran over the poly's to test for spec, all ok now. Adjusted using an RGB test pattern and..... {insert picture of perfectly working monitor saved from the dead}"

You bet those get bookmarked and filed under the "try this next time" folder.

But its the working out that's important and with that I would implore anyone with a higher level of understanding to help us who are not there yet to go that one step closer - the experts aren't going to be around forever so its important that the knowledge is passed down to those with interest - lest all our cabs will get LCD's about 20 years before they need to!
 

Ordyne

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From what you say TR20 is bad, I'd replace that and try again. D19 to 21 are acting normally.

Basic transistor testing (ie not mosfets) is just like testing multiple diodes in one package. Ie when testing with a diode test on your meter (not continuity or resistance) you will get a junction drop in one direction and nothing in the other (when you reverse your meter probes over the same two pins)

Not all transistors will show the same over the same pins as you have NPN vs PNP and then different base, collector and emitter layouts, there's are hundreds of good tutorials on the net for diode/transistor testing so have a good read :) if you don't want to look up the transistor to see if it's NPN or PNP then just make sure you have nothing or a junction drop in every possible combination, it's a dirty way of testing but quick and easy. This won't work with mosfets as they are a different animal.

I'm doing this on my iPhone so it make not make sense!
 

Purity

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Yes makes sense. So what I've tested so far are NPN transistors. I drew up a quick diagram to help me with testing them, so I think I've done it correctly? I think the only pinout I wasn't sure about was the BU801. Look right?

transistors.png
 
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Purity

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I've updated the figures on the previous page, and rechecked everything based on the diagram above, in circuit.

So ultimately looks like:

TR20 shorted
TR19 shorted
TR22 shorted
TR21 ok
TR15 shorted
TR17 shorted

smiley19.gif


Does this look correct based on my pin identification and readings?
Purity2014-01-13 21:34:03
 

Ordyne

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Purity said:
I've updated the figures on the previous page, and rechecked everything based on the diagram above, in circuit.

So ultimately looks like:

TR20 shorted
TR19 shorted
TR22 shorted
TR21 ok
TR15 shorted
TR17 shorted

smiley19.gif


Does this look correct based on my pin identification and readings?

I'm not sure how your diagram is helping you but your interpreting the readings incorrectly, on the readings you gave previously the only things that sound bad are the HOT and TR20, everything else looked ok BUT I have only just noticed you have tested them in circuit. You will get away with testing some silicon like this but not always, as you get used to specific chassis you get to know what you can get away with. Small stuff I would always pull and test, HOT and large power transistors I would give them a quick dirty test in circuit and if anything looked iffy I would pull it and test it properly. The rectifier diodes you will normally get away with in circuit, also most transistors and diodes will not go open, they will nearly always go short!

The BDX53 isn't a standard NPN transistor, its a Darlington which is basically two transistors in one package. By testing them with a meter you can tell if they have a dead short but that's about it. Yours *looks* ok, just leave it for now as it will run if its bad and isn't causing your issue.

Is there any chance you slipped with the meter probe when measuring the large wire wound resistor on the side of the chassis and shorted it to the metal frame?

I would pull and test the HOT and TR20 and see what the real readings are.

Then replace as needed, pull the scan coil from the connector so there is no deflection connected and see what voltage you get from the PSU section, it should fire up ok and have about 180v as there will be no load. If you want to add a 60 Watt light bulb as load it will give you a pretty accurate reading.

Ordyne2014-01-14 09:58:26
 

Purity

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Ok thanks for that. I'll pull the HOT and TR20 and re-test, as before

It is possible that I might have touched the metal frame, although I was being careful and I don't recall obviously doing that

I'll test the voltage with the scan coil connector removed and report back

You've said that I've interpreting the readings incorrectly. Can you tell me where I've gone wrong please?

I put the diagram together to assist me in making sure the I has reading the legs correctly in terms of which was B, C or E
Purity2014-01-14 11:07:23
 

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Ordyne said:
I'm not sure as I don't know why you think all the transistors are bad?

OK I'll explain what I did and you can tell me where I am going wrong?

So first of all I looked at the datasheets for each transistor to confirm which leg was collector, emitter and base - hence my diagram. Some were more difficult to find

My understanding of NPN transistors is that I should be getting a reading when:

Positive is on B, Negative on C
Positive is on B, Negative on E

I should not get a reading when:

Positive is on C, Negative on B
Positive is on E, Negative on B
Positive is on E, Negative on C
Positive is on C, Negative on E

As I was getting readings on most transistors were I expected not to be getting readings I assumed this meant that the transistor had shorted?

I apologise if I have misunderstood how this works

Purity2014-01-14 12:56:00
 

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Equites said:
Ben - did you test the Transistors out of circuit using the Diode test function on the DMM?

I have not tested them out of circuit as yet.

I know that it is best to do this as I could be getting incorrect information - the same for the diodes

But before doing so I wondered if I could get away with it, with monitor experts looking at the results that I got in-circuit. Plus I wasn't 100% sure I was testing them correctly so I wanted to get confirmation on that before desoldering them or lifting legs, and going further
 

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Purity said:
Equites said:
Ben - did you test the Transistors out of circuit using the Diode test function on the DMM?

I have not tested them out of circuit as yet.

I know that it is best to do this as I could be getting incorrect information - the same for the diodes

But before doing so I wondered if I could get away with it, with monitor experts looking at the results that I got in-circuit. Plus I wasn't 100% sure I was testing them correctly so I wanted to get confirmation on that before desoldering them or lifting legs, and going further

That would explain the results, I did think it was unusual for so many failed components.

Transistors and Diodes 'must' be test out of circuit, a pain I know but it is the only way to do this.
 

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Equites said:
That would explain the results, I did think it was unusual for so many failed components.

Transistors and Diodes 'must' be test out of circuit, a pain I know but it is the only way to do this.

Fair enough. I will desolder them.

Am I testing them correctly as per information above?

i.e. correct leg identification and understanding readings between legs?
 

Equites

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Ben, I use the following method;

Set your meter to the diode test.

NPN

Connect the red meter lead to the base of the transistor. Connect the black meter lead to the emitter, you should see a JUNCTION DROP voltage of between 0.45v and 0.9v.

Leave the red meter lead on the base and move the black lead to the collector. The reading should be the same as the previous test.

Reverse the meter leads in your hands and repeat the test. This time, connect the black meter lead to the base of the transistor. Connect the red meter lead to the emitter. The transistor should read OPEN.

Leave the black meter lead on the base and move the red lead to the collector. The reading should be the same as the previous test. Place one meter lead on the collector, the other on the emitter. The meter should read OPEN. Reverse your meter leads. The meter should read OPEN. This is the same for both NPN and PNP transistors.

PNP

Connect the red meter lead to the base of the transistor. Connect the black meter lead to the emitter, the transistor should read OPEN.

Leave the red meter lead on the base and move the black lead to the collector. The reading should be the same as the previous test.

Reverse the meter leads in your hands and repeat the test. This time, connect the black meter lead to the base of the transistor. Connect the red meter lead to the emitter. The transistor should read a JUNCTION DROP voltage of between 0.45v and 0.9v.

Leave the black meter lead on the base and move the red lead to the collector. The reading should be the same as the previous test. Place one meter lead on the collector, the other on the emitter. The meter should read OPEN. Reverse your meter leads. The meter should read OPEN. This is the same for both NPN and PNP transistors.
Equites2014-01-14 14:36:32
 

Purity

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So out of circuit:

TR20 (TIPL762) read as BCE

B+ C- = 718
C+ B- = Nothing
B+ E- = 779
E+ B- = Nothing
E+ C- = Nothing
E+ B- = Nothing

So that looks ok?

TR19 (BU801) read as BCE

B+ C- = Nothing
C+ B- = Nothing
B+ E- = Nothing
E+ B- = 892
E+ C- = 886
E+ B- = Nothing

Look ok but my pin order is wrong?

TR22 (BC639) read as ECB

B+ C- = 900
C+ B- = Nothing
B+ E- = 895
E+ B- = Nothing
E+ C- = Nothing
E+ B- = Nothing

So that looks ok?

TR21 (BF422) read as BCE

B+ C- = 952
C+ B- = Nothing
B+ E- = 980
E+ B- = Nothing
E+ C- = Nothing
E+ B- = Nothing

So that looks ok?

TR15 (BU508A) read as BCE

B+ C- = 179
C+ B- = 174
B+ E- = 061
E+ B- = 061
E+ C- = 111
E+ B- = 110

So that looks bad?

TR17 (BDX 53 A) read as BCE

B+ C- = 883
C+ B- = Nothing
B+ E- = 1023
E+ B- = Nothing
E+ C- = 679
E+ B- = Nothing

No idea with this one?

If you can please confirm working ones and I will solder them back on
Purity2014-01-14 22:36:04
 

RGP

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TR15 definitely doesn't look good at that.

TR17 (The BDX53), as Ordy said is a darlington so you won't be able to test it very easily. I'm not even sure if my Atlas DCA55 would be able to test that properly as i've never tried it with one.

If you're not seeing dead shorts then it is likely to be ok, however, and again, I could be wrong, with it being a darlington tx, it could be out of spec but as said above the monitor would run without it.

TR15 isn't used until later on in the horizontal drive stage (ie., after the scan coil connector) so lets get the psu section sorted first and everything kinda looks ok in that arena.

When you put them back in circuit, some of them have insulators on the ones that are clamped to the metal frame - make sure they are not allowing the collector to touch the frame as the frame is zero volts so you'd have a dead short.

I had a TR15 on a 9110 that was giving some nice arcs to the frame because that insulator wasn't right and was breaking down.
 
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