Referendum

[anj]

hears my thought , Scotland being a independent country is a good idea however that being said i dont think that samon has found workable solicitations to all the problems involved in being a independent country , and i am worried that if Scotland get the yes they are going to be in for a very rough ride and are going to get screwed over by tear new government , I agree that being ruled from Westminster is not the best thing but they have not worked out what they are going to use as a currency , its scary , i wold not like to be living in Scotland at the moment , i love the place i lived in Inverness for 2 years and its so nice up there , but i don't think the politicians behind the referendum no what they are doing ,

and if it goes yes i hope it works and im just paranoid ,

any way the rest of the uk can always just invade them again if they get out of line LOL

 

[DanP]

I've tried to stay out of the whole debate as this particular subject only seems to bring out the worst in people (on both sides), the vitriolic outbursts poured on anyone with a differing opinion have just been very frightening for anyone with an even vaguely logical mind. However I can't say quiet any more (I'll probably post the same or similar on FB if I get time).

If there's anything we can learn from the 20th century it's that nationalism is a bad thing, not just Scottish nationalism ALL nationalism. For gods sake in this century we should be moving closer together not trying to split each other apart. Nationalism is a base creed, it appeals to humans lowest emotion and always has, in neolithic times it was "we're better than those guys in the next cave" or "we don't want those guys next door telling us what to do" or "Lets take what those guys have, they're Untermenshen anyway". We've seen how far nationalism got Europe in the past - disaster for everyone. How long after a yes vote before the first Englishman is beaten up by some "patriots" in Edinburgh and by the same token how long before the first Scot is battered in London by some brave EDL thugs? What sort of example are we showing to other nations in Europe. What next, Lombardy to split from Italy, Germany to shatter into it's constituent Principalities (hello again Prussia), a second Spanish Civil War, where will it end?

The truth of the matter is that 300 years of union have made us a homogenised hybrid nation. How many people on here for example who don't live in Scotland can trace a known relative back to Scotland (or Wales or Ireland as well as in my case)? I don't consider myself particularly English, I'm a bit of all the 4 ergo British.

The only countries I can see that will welcome the cleaving of the UK will be it's enemies. What do you think Putin will be doing if there's a yes - laughing his ass off, do you think he'd give a region the chance to vote itself independent? What about those brave soldiers of IS, a split UK will be just another country/border for them to hide behind as the UK show's it's weakness.

I don't blame the Scottish people for any of this, the fault is squarely on the inept politicians in London who have mismanaged things for too long. Using Scotland as a Guinea pig for any dodgy legislation for too long. The irony is that many of these muppets have been Scottish in recent years. In Alex Salmond the nationalists have a smooth talking, silky voiced and skilled politician who can spin anything to sound reasonable and plausible. He's picture the YES camp as plucky underdogs being pushed around (how many times has that man said "bullied" in the last 18 months???). He appeals to only positive emotions (hell the word YES is primed to appeal emotionally as it's a positive which people are always much more naturally inclined to select), hiding anything negative behind the same "no one can tell us what to do" argument. He really is very good and convincing but at the end of it all he's a politician who want's only one thing - more power for himself at any cost.

My hope is that there's a "No" outcome but that the closeness of the vote will show the rest of the UK that they need Scotland and to not to take it for granted again. The devolution of power that follows will hopefully give Scotland all the freedoms it want's and pave the way for other regions to get the same but as part of a greater federation.

Dan

 

[grobda]

The BBC coverage is so transparently biased its maing me feel sick.

 

[anj]

apparently if they yes vote goes through all cars in registered in Scotland will need new plates this means that anyone with a privet no plate will lose it

4 days to go so its all in the hands of those living in Scotland

Good luck ether way ,

 

[smidsy]

It still remains a massive source of annoyance to me that as a Scot living in the United Kingdom, I don't get a vote.

The additional irony being that there are hundreds of thousands of 'non-scots' who live in Scotland that will get a vote on this.

Also from what I understand. Scots living abroad had the chance for a postal vote. So why not those living in the U.K.?

Craig

 

[favouredson]

......I believe Scotland should rule itself after 300+ years of Westminster rule.

Don't forget that it was a Scottish king who united us in the first place so you only have yourselves to blame...

 

[RygarR]

That was kindof my point.

The main stream media has taken a clear cut stance against indepence. The only paper leaning towards it is the Sunday Herald - a Glasgow based weekly. Despite the relentless deluge of negativity from the no side, official polls still show level pegging. The reason for this? The beeb have made a big deal of the electrifying political situation in Scotland, and the huge growth of grass roots discussion. What they have never gone on to say is that the vast majority of meetings in just about every community and church hall across the country, have ended up seeing the positives and advantages of independence. Living in Scotland, and having been lucky enough to have travelled literally all over it in the last year, what I've seen and heard have been a level of support for independence in principle even if that didn't transpire at the polls that you could never work out from the media reportage..

The recent united front of the West monster elite shows how sh*t scared they are of being turfed out of the trough. Note the antics of Gordon brown, my constituency mp. He seems to have endless time to spare stifling the democratic process in Scotland. Or jaunting off to China, Mexico or the US to earn hundreds of thousands giving talks. In the 6 years I've lived here, he hasn't been to my town once. Seems he only turns up in parliament once a month too. Like he others, all he cares about is is career...

I imagine the same sources that you get your unbiased facts from. Or are they, in fact , all biased depending on opinion?

 

[RygarR]

Dan,

The media has turned the referendum into a pantomime. In reality, the vitriol has been minimal, and actually less than you would find in almost any other debate.

Also, Scottish nationalism is a peaceful, left of centre civic movement. It is inclusive, and actually wants to encourage more people to move here. Compare that with the warmongering, and racist immigration policies of the three big neoliberal westminster parties...

I've tried to stay out of the whole debate as this particular subject only seems to bring out the worst in people (on both sides), the vitriolic outbursts poured on anyone with a differing opinion have just been very frightening for anyone with an even vaguely logical mind.  However I can't say quiet any more (I'll probably post the same or similar on FB if I get time).  ?

If there's anything we can learn from the 20th century it's that nationalism is a bad thing, not just Scottish nationalism ALL nationalism.  For gods sake in this century we should be moving closer together not trying to split each other apart.   Nationalism is a base creed, it appeals to humans lowest emotion and always has, in neolithic times it was "we're better than those guys in the next cave" or "we don't want those guys next door telling us what to do" or "Lets take what those guys have, they're Untermenshen anyway".   We've seen how far nationalism got Europe in the past - disaster for everyone.  How long after a yes vote before the first Englishman is beaten up by some "patriots" in Edinburgh and by the same token how long before the first Scot is battered in London by some brave EDL thugs?     What sort of example are we showing to other nations in Europe.  What next,  Lombardy to split from Italy,   Germany to shatter into it's constituent Principalities (hello again Prussia),  a second Spanish Civil War, where will it end?

The truth of the matter is that 300 years of union have made us a homogenised hybrid nation.   How many people on here for example who don't live in Scotland can trace a known relative back to Scotland (or Wales or Ireland as well as in my case)?   I don't consider myself particularly English,  I'm a bit of all the 4 ergo British.

The only countries I can see that will welcome the cleaving of the UK will be it's enemies.   What do you think Putin will be doing if there's a yes - laughing his ass off, do you think he'd give a region the chance to vote itself independent?   What about those brave soldiers of IS, a split UK will be just another country/border for them to hide behind as the UK show's it's weakness.

I don't blame the Scottish people for any of this, the fault is squarely on the inept politicians in London who have mismanaged things for too long.   Using Scotland as a Guinea pig for any dodgy legislation for too long.   The irony is that many of these muppets have been Scottish in recent years.    In Alex Salmond the nationalists have a smooth talking, silky voiced and skilled politician who can spin anything to sound reasonable and plausible.   He's picture the YES camp as plucky underdogs being pushed around (how many times has that man said "bullied" in the last 18 months???).   He appeals to only positive emotions (hell the word YES is primed to appeal emotionally as it's a positive which people are always much more naturally inclined to select), hiding anything negative behind the same "no one can tell us what to do" argument.  He really is very good and convincing but at the end of it all he's a politician who want's only one thing - more power for himself at any cost.  ?

My hope is that there's a "No" outcome but that the closeness of the vote will show the rest of the UK that they need Scotland and to not to take it for granted again.   The devolution of power that follows will hopefully give Scotland all the freedoms it want's and pave the way for other regions to get the same but as part of a greater federation. ?

Dan

 

[DanP]

Dan,

The media has turned the referendum into a pantomime. In reality, the vitriol has been minimal, and actually less than you would find in almost any other debate.

Also, Scottish nationalism is a peaceful, left of centre civic movement. It is inclusive, and actually wants to encourage more people to move here. Compare that with the warmongering, and racist immigration policies of the three big neoliberal westminster parties...

I don't really pay much attention to the media, the only propaganda I tend to see is the YES stuff plastered all over my FB timeline The vitriol I've seen is for myself on social media and it's pretty nasty stuff.

Nationalism is almost always marketed as being "peaceful", simply a group looking for more "self determination" or similar. I'm not suggesting the current campaigners are Nazi's but they also started as a party left of centre/semi socialist civic movement who just wanted jobs and prosperity for it's people. Nationalism ALWAYS attracts the nut jobs with low IQ's but big fists to it's ranks who mask their actions as "patriotism" or "just looking out for our people" bullsh*t. Nationalists of any stripe are a divisive force in politics and belong in the distant past. I include English nationalists (whatever they're called these days) and those UKIP nut jobs in this category. Any truly socialist politician cannot also be a nationalist, the two are just incompatible. Socialism is about caring for everyone, not just a subset of people according to where they were born, what pigment they have in their skin or who gave them there genetic code.

I can tell you, a YES vote will lead the a direct increase in far right activity in England and especially a massive rise in anti Scottish feeling. This whole debate on the currency is a case in point, the English voting public will not allow the UK government to share a currency with Scotland even if the government wants to and that's even if it's in the UK's best interest financially. Alex Salmond has failed to take to English general public into account in his Plan B thinking. The masses in England will want to see Scotland crash and burn as a narrow minded little Englander swell takes over. Socialism as a force will disappear from the UK for a generation

 

[Macro]

Scots don't hate the English, they hate Westminster politicians and their policies - that's what they want rid of.

I don't think many of the English care much for them either

there's an old joke I remember from years ago, that basically says "it doesn't matter who I vote for - the government always get in"

so, in the long term you could just be replacing one bunch of self centred prats with another

 

[RygarR]

What you might not know is that Scottish Nationalism is not just starting out. Home Rule was part of the original Labour party manifesto. The SNP is about a hundred years old, they've been the elected governing party in the Scottish Parliament for almost ten. This has only happened because they are the only mainstream socialist voice in Scottish (and actually UK) politics. The so called labour party hasn't been socialist for years. In Scotland, they actively campaign against left wing initiatives simply to score tribal points.

The problems you describe have v little to do with Scottish independence, but the break down of the social contract in England after years of neglect by the establishment reinforced by media collusion. The only hope you have to break the downward spiral is a yes vote on Thursday.

Dan,

The media has turned the referendum into a pantomime. In reality, the vitriol has been minimal, and actually less than you would find in almost any other debate.

Also, Scottish nationalism is a peaceful, left of centre civic movement. It is inclusive, and actually wants to encourage more people to move here. Compare that with the warmongering, and racist immigration policies of the three big neoliberal westminster parties...

I don't really pay much attention to the media,   the only propaganda I tend to see is the YES stuff plastered all over my FB timeline    The vitriol I've seen is for myself on social media and it's pretty nasty stuff. ?

Nationalism is almost always marketed as being "peaceful", simply a group looking for more "self determination" or similar.   I'm not suggesting the current campaigners are Nazi's but they also started as a party left of centre/semi socialist civic movement who just wanted jobs and prosperity for it's people.   Nationalism ALWAYS attracts the nut jobs with low IQ's but big fists to it's ranks who mask their actions as "patriotism" or "just looking out for our people" bullsh*t.   Nationalists of any stripe are a divisive force in politics and belong in the distant past.  I include English nationalists (whatever they're called these days) and those UKIP nut jobs in this category.   Any truly socialist politician cannot also be a nationalist, the two are just incompatible.    Socialism is about caring for everyone, not just a subset of people according to where they were born, what pigment they have in their skin or who gave them there genetic code.

I can tell you, a YES vote will lead the a direct increase in far right activity in England and especially a massive rise in anti Scottish feeling.   This whole debate on the currency is a case in point, the English voting public will not allow the UK government to share a currency with Scotland even if the government wants to and that's even if it's in the UK's best interest financially. Alex Salmond has failed to take to English general public into account in his Plan B thinking.   The masses in England will want to see Scotland crash and burn as a narrow minded little Englander swell takes over.   Socialism as a force will disappear from the UK for a generation 

RygarR2014-09-14 16:54:15

 

[stevearcade]

Dan's on the money. There's a bigger picture here relating to both historical context of the wider world and wider politics, both past and future. I worry that a decision to split could be a hasty one, one that sets the wrong example to a whole generation of youngsters, one that has negative side effects in other parts of Europe, one that frankly proves to be culturally divisive in the long run and cause more problems than it solves.

I hope that we remain united, but that it's a slim majority. That Westminster takes heed from the whole event and gives more power over to each individual part of the UK to self govern under the umbrella of GB. I honestly think that that would be a better outcome.

 

[stevebm1]

a scot I work with made a good point today,if the vote does go YES,then labours chance of ever winning the general election again are nil

 

[IDCHAPPY]

a scot I work with made a good point today,if the vote does go YES,then labours chance of ever winning the general election again are nil

This one has been debunked though dude, I think out of 20 general elections the scots vote has only affected the outcome 2 times

 

[Alpha1]

I'm not going to type to much even though I probably have loads to say as I've given up caring.

However I will say this.

There's a massive load of sh*t coming from both sides. Don't debunk the side you're against without sniffing out the sh*t being said on the side you're on.

Could write pages on this, but that's all you're getting.

 

[Muppz]

Being 25% French, 25% Irish, 25% German and 25% English I say good luck to the Scottish. Not many get a Win - Win situation in politics, independance or massive devolved power hand over.

I agree with Alpha1, both sides are painting the picture that gets the result they want (did I just describe politics

) and I also agree the BBC isn't helping, they are acting like real government lapdogs recently.

The question is will Westminister honour in full any agreement if it does swing to NO? look at the record since the last election.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

Being 25% French, 25% Irish, 25% German and 25% English I say good luck to the Scottish. Not many get a Win - Win situation in politics, independance or massive devolved power hand over.

I agree with Alpha1, both sides are painting the picture that gets the result they want (did I just describe politics

) and I also agree the BBC isn't helping, they are acting like real government lapdogs recently.

The question is will Westminister honour in full any agreement if it does swing to NO? look at the record since the last election.

Thatcher didn't follow though (oo-er) after her 79 promises so i certainly wouldn't hold my breath.
I don't mean to sound dramatic here but I'll be deeply ashamed to be Scottish if we become the first country in the world not to vote for its own independence when given the opportunity to do so.

 

[rcantor77]

I don't mean to sound dramatic here but I'll be deeply ashamed to be Scottish if we become the first country in the world not to vote for its own independence when given the opportunity to do so.

There's no need to worry mate... Quebec have voted No twice and so have a few others.

I am keeping out of this argument, but at the end of the day each side of the camp can highlight how biased the media is, and when doing so you wouldnt see someone talking about your side as being bias. Fact is the media has a side... some one side and some the other, that is life. So just get all the facts and vote for what you think is right.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I thought Quebec was a province though?

 

[cosine]

I'm keeping my views on this under wraps, as a few other local businesses have stated their stance on it and suffered some backlash as a result.
This in itself, is ridiculous, since your political opinion in no way affects how you serve your customers.

I

my customers, for they (usually) pay my bills.